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recordfan
Post subject: What can be done about this???  PostPosted: Feb 29, 2012 - 05:16 PM
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Here is something from the "Worst case scenario" department. The following record sold as if it was a rare first pressing. It isn't. Actually it is a counterfeit, reissue, bootleg, etc.

Here is the link to the item>

http://www.ebay.com/itm/270913753780

This record came out as the Avantis on Chancellor in 1963. It was issued illegally issued in 1965 or so on this Astra label.

Other records put out on this label around the same time were also previous issues from back as far as 7 years earlier.

Under Water by the Forgmen was issued as Astra 1009
"Baby" the Avons Astra 1023 Originally on Hull from around 1957
Torquay the Fireballs Astra 1021 Originally on Top Rank from 1959
Weekend the Kingsmen Astra 1025 Originally on East West from 1958

And there are others. Osborne to his credit shows these Astra issues at reduced and sometimes greatly reduced values, but does no show them as boots or illegal reissues.

Look at the seller's description. This Astra recording is "unknown". Huh??? So, because of lack of knowledge by the seller and stupidity by the buyer, people are going to think this is a really rare original.
 
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hrtshpdbox
Post subject:   PostPosted: Feb 29, 2012 - 05:26 PM
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The worst part is the use of the word "tittyshaker" in the subject title; any time I see that stupid word I stop looking at the seller's items.
 
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Post subject: RE: What can be done about this???  PostPosted: Feb 29, 2012 - 05:32 PM
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How can it be a counterfeit and reissue at the same time?

Usually when one says reissue it is completely legal whereas a counterfeit or boot is not. Given that it was not originally even released on this label you can assume the buyer knows it's not a counterfeit.
 
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Post subject:   PostPosted: Mar 01, 2012 - 07:25 AM
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Incredible auction price for a reissue. It's not a bootleg press, though- Ernie Kaschauer owned the label and the records were pressed in the old RCA pressing plant in Swissvale, PA under mechanical license from the copyright holders. When Mad Mike Metro would unleash another monster record on the rekkid-nuts area collectors, demand for a 45 would prompt Astra to obtain a mechanical and press up a bunch, distributing them thru National Record Mart.

On a related note- There were many reissues on the original label that collectors call Pittsburgh pressings. These would be produced by the original label for distribution by National Record Mart in Pittsburgh, and would usually be subtly different from the original- Sometimes a "dist. by Red Fox Records" tag would arc across the bottom of the label (Oo Ma Liddy by J.J.Jackson on Prelude, for example), or a different label color (Love Come Back by Andy Charles on D- Tan rather than yellow label). Just a few examples but there's lots more.

Bootleg rekkids (repros) here didn't appear until the 70s and sometimes they drew the ire of the original publisher, gaining for the seller a visit from the FBI.
 
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RidinTheWind
Post subject:   PostPosted: Mar 01, 2012 - 02:54 PM
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I ran across the Avantis at Half Price a few years back, not "Wax 'Em Down", believe it was on Astra. Too bad the 45 was cracked from center to rim.

Anyway, in Pittsburgh, I've run across Astra and always understood that it was a reissue label.

BTW, I seem to recall the Vogues' "5 O'clock World" being reissued by Astra on yellow vinyl, around 1974/75.

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recordfan
Post subject:   PostPosted: Mar 01, 2012 - 08:55 PM
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stephenjaye wrote:
Incredible auction price for a reissue. It's not a bootleg press, though- Ernie Kaschauer owned the label and the records were pressed in the old RCA pressing plant in Swissvale, PA under mechanical license from the copyright holders. When Mad Mike Metro would unleash another monster record on the rekkid-nuts area collectors, demand for a 45 would prompt Astra to obtain a mechanical and press up a bunch, distributing them thru National Record Mart.


Thanks for the bootleg/reissue explanation here. Even so, my main point was about how it looks like people that don't know any better think these Astras are originals such as pre Chancellor for the Avantis and especially pre Candix for the Frogmen. I "think" that in early volumes Whitburn had the Astra Frogmen worth more than the Candix issues, which would have led to confusion. And checking my 1996 Whitburn "Top Pop Singles" just now has him saying that "Underwater" by the Frogmen was first issued on Astra in 1960.
 
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Post subject:   PostPosted: Mar 01, 2012 - 09:54 PM
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Even trickier is the Frogmen "Underwater" on Scott - most people think that issue was earlier than the Candix, which turns out to be the original label.

The Scott was a label put together by Frogmen members after Candix folded. An example of a quasi-bootleg.

slyfox
 
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Heidler
Post subject: What can be done about this???  PostPosted: Mar 02, 2012 - 06:11 PM
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Good one slyfox...

I have an old bio from Candix which states that the band is " 4 - piece " yet the same bio lists five members !

It says they were from Culver City and consisted of Mike Anderson, Larry Barton'e , Dennis Fowley, Ray Sullivan, and Jim Young.

Obviously, to a collector, Dixsil Publishing ( which also appears on the later Scott releases ) was a part of the CANDIX record company
( located at 7060 Hollywood Blvd ) and run by brothers Richard and Robert Dix.

Strangely, in some cases there are different b-sides, depending on which label issued,
confusing to be sure.

" Underwater " on Candix ( 314 ) has " The Mad Rush " as the flip
" Underwater " on Scott ( 102 ) has " Beware Below " as the flip

Again with " Beware Below " ( Candix 326 ) had " Tioga as the flip
( this was also released on Astra 1010, the label previously mentioned in this thread )

But on Scott (101 ) it was " Seahorse Flats " was coupled with " Tioga "

The boys also had a release for Tee Jay ( 131 ) " Sea Haunt " b/w " Diamond Back "
( Some Los Angeles stations played " Diamond Back " as the " hit " side )

I don't know how many people have stated or wriiten that the Scott-label issues were first..
YOU hit the nail right on the head!

There are / were other Scott imprints, including one owned by Henry Stone of T.K. ( Top-Knotch ) and for the last 50 years,
owner of many imprints as well as Tone Distributors, once Florida's largest outlet.

Thanks.

H

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slyfoxOffline
Post subject: RE: What can be done about this???  PostPosted: Mar 02, 2012 - 06:58 PM
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The reason "The Mad Rush" never came out on Scott was because it wasn't by the Frogmen - it was most likely an unreleased tape by the Ernie Freeman Combo and it's not real good - frankly. Scott was a way for the Frogmen to release their own released & previously unreleased material after Candix went away. My Frogmen friend had nothing much good to say about Candix, but then Gary Paxton had little good to say about Lute (named because someone made plenty o'loot).

According to my research, there were 6 Frogmen...not to mention the fake group outta Bakersfield that replaced the real guys on Dick Clark

These and other stories will be in my book, upcoming soon. No kidding. I'll disclose the book info when it comes out.

I listened to L.A. rock & roll radio heavily during the 1960s and don't recall anything by the Frogmen other than Underwater being played on the aforementioned radio - i.e. Diamond Back. Beware Below did chart on KRLA.

slyfox
 
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Heidler
Post subject: What can be done abouy this???  PostPosted: Mar 03, 2012 - 07:28 AM
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slyfox

Again, good stuff
( KFWB DID play the other Frogmen track, so did KCBQ in San Diego, it didn't make their " survey " either )

I too listened to KRLA more than any other station in Los Angeles, I never indicated it was THEY who programmed and / or played the other track.

There are certainly a lot of surviving tracks by " The Ernie Freeman Combo " issued by several labels under different names, and I wouldn't at all be suprised that the Dix brothers would use an alternate take by another artist(s)
( that's good information to know )

As far as Gary S. Paxton, one of the things that Sandy ( Sander ) Nelson recalled was how much Paxton always " whined " about his " treatment " at Al Kavelin's LUTE imprint.
Kinda strange, he kept going back to Kavelin and LUTE on several occasions AFTER his stint with The Hollywood Argyles.
( these further issues were not from " in-the-can " masters but done at further sessions )
Paxton still recorded for him, and still whined about his " mistreatment "

Several people have commented on ex-band leader Kavelin's business practices.
The late ex Teddy Bear Marshall Lieb worked with Kavelin as a partner in publishing and they both had an office at 7250 Beverly Blvd.
Both Marshall and Kavelin ran the Marsh ( The Ribbons, etc ) and CAPCO ( The Westwoods, etc )

Kavelin's daughter Toni Kavelin ( Beldock ) is still alive, you should interview her for your book.
She had some great stories to tell about her dad AND Mr. Paxton as relayed to her by her dad.

I used to deliver newspapers to Al Kavelin when he was on Argyle ( the " Penthouse " ) before he moved over to Olympic.
Later, he took out a P.O. Box, like so many othe label owners did.

Other label owner in that building(s) were Lou Bedell at DORE and Bob Keane ( Keene / Kuhn ) at Del Fi before his move to 6277 Selma,
where he stayed for years.
There were several other small labels that popped in and out of 1608-1610 Argyle ( Marquee was there before Sunset, as was Mutt & Jeff Records ) and much like 1107 El Centro ( at one time Class and Combo, etc, they moved around too,as I'm sure you well know )
all of them are no longer there.

I always had trouble getting Keane to pay me, but then he didn't cough-up for the " Del Fi Hot Rod " either *
(* to be a give-away " prize " on the Lloyd Thaxton show aka " Teenage Dancetime " )
The car actually existed, I saw it several times, Marshall Lieb tried to buy it, I don't know what ever happened to it but I was told nobody
" won " it... maybe your book will tell us?


H

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Last edited by Heidler on Mar 03, 2012 - 04:55 PM; edited 1 time in total
 
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